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74.17 Questioner: I assume that the reason that the rituals that have been used previously are of effect is that these words have built a bias in consciousness of those who have worked in these areas so that those who are of the distortion of mind that we seek will respond to the imprint in consciousness of these series of words. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is, to a great extent, correct. The exception is the sounding of some of what you call your Hebrew and some of what you call your Sanskrit vowels. These sound vibration complexes have power before time and space and represent configurations of light which built all that there is.
74.18 Questioner: Why do these sounds have this property?
Ra: I am Ra. The correspondence in vibratory complex is mathematical.
At this time we have enough transferred energy for one full query.
74.19 Questioner: How did the users of these sounds, Sanskrit and Hebrew, determine what these sounds were?
Ra: I am Ra. In the case of the Hebrew that entity known as Yahweh aided this knowledge through impression upon the material of genetic coding which became language, as you call it.
In the case of Sanskrit the sound vibrations are pure due to the lack of previous what you call alphabet or letter-naming. Thus the sound vibration complexes seemed to fall into place as from the Logos. This was a more, shall we say, natural or unaided situation or process.
We would at this time make note of the incident in the previous working where our contact was incorrectly placed for a short period and was then corrected. In the exercise of the fire you may see the initial spiral clockwise from the green-ray energy center, through the shoulders and head, then through the elbows, then to the left hand. The channel had been corrected before the remainder of this answer was completed.
Is there a brief query at this time?
75.15 Questioner: The chink then, as I understand it, was originally created by the decision of Jesus to take the path of martyrdom? Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is, in relation to this instrument, quite correct. It is aware of certain over-balances towards love, even to martyrdom but has not yet, to any significant degree, balanced these distortions. We do not imply that this course of unbridled compassion has any fault but affirm its perfection. It is an example of love which has served as beacon to many.
For those who seek further, the consequences of martyrdom must be considered, for in martyrdom lies the end of the opportunity, in the density of the martyr, to offer love and light. Each entity must seek its deepest path.
75.17 Questioner: How was the Orion entity able to act through this linkage of the “Hosanna?” Was this simply because of the mental distortion of the instrument at this period of time, because of that suggested by the music, or was it a more physical or more metaphysical link from the time of Christ?
Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, the latter supposition is false. This entity is not linked with the entity, Jehoshua. Secondly, there is a most unique circumstance. There is an entity which has attracted the attention of an Orion light being. This is extremely rare.
This entity has an intense devotion to the teachings and example of the one it calls Jesus. This entity then vibrates in song a most demanding version, called The Mass in B Minor by Bach, of this exemplary votive complex of sound vibrations. The entity is consciously identifying with each part of this Mass. Only thusly was the chink made available. As you can see, it is not an ordinary occurrence and would not have happened had any ingredient been left out: exhaustion, bias in belief complexes, attention from an Orion entity, and the metaphysical nature of that particular set of words.
75.23 Questioner: I am sorry for the confusion. Sometimes, as you say, sound vibration complexes are not very adequate, and I’m sorry.
You made the statement in a previous session that the true adept lives more and more as it is. Will you explain and expand upon that statement?
Ra: I am Ra. Each entity is the Creator. The entity, as it becomes more and more conscious of its self, gradually comes to the turning point at which it determines to seek either in service to others or in service to self. The seeker becomes the adept when it has balanced with minimal adequacy the energy centers red, orange, yellow, and blue with the addition of the green for the positive, thus moving into indigo work.
The adept then begins to do less of the preliminary or outer work, having to do with function, and begins to effect the inner work which has to do with being. As the adept becomes a more and more consciously crystallized entity it gradually manifests more and more of that which it always has been since before time; that is, the One Infinite Creator.
75.24 Questioner: The answer to this question probably has to do with our distorted view of time, but I see Wanderers in this density who have come from fifth or sixth density. [It] seems to me [that they] should already be of a relatively high degree of adeptness [and] must follow a slightly or somewhat different path back to the adeptness that they previously had in a higher density and get as close to it as they can in third density. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Your query is less than perfectly focused. We shall address the subject in general.
There are many Wanderers whom you may call adepts who do no conscious work in the present incarnation. It is a matter of attention. One may be a fine catcher of your game sphere, but if the eye is not turned as this sphere is tossed then perchance it will pass the entity by. If it turned its eyes upon the sphere, catching would be easy. In the case of Wanderers which seek to recapitulate the degree of adeptness which each had acquired previous to this life experience, we may note that even after the forgetting process has been penetrated there is still the yellow-ray activated body which does not respond as does the adept which is of a green- or blue-ray activated body. Thusly, you may see the inevitability of frustrations and confusion due to the inherent difficulties of manipulating the finer forces of consciousness through the chemical apparatus of the yellow-ray activated body.
75.26 Questioner: You spoke in a previous session about certain Hebrew and Sanskrit sound vibratory complexes being powerful because they were mathematically related to that which was the creation. Could you expand on this understanding, please, as to how these are linked?
Ra: I am Ra. As we previously stated the linkage is mathematical or that of the ratio. You may consider it musical. There are those whose mind complex activities would attempt to resolve this mathematical ratio but at present the coloration of the intoned vowel is part of the vibration which cannot be accurately measured. However, it is equivalent to types of rotation of your primary material particles.
75.27 Questioner: If these sounds are precisely vibrated then what effect or use would they have with respect to the purposes of the adept?
Ra: I am Ra. You may consider the concept of sympathetic resonance. When certain sounds are correctly vibrated, the creation sings.
75.28 Questioner: Would these sounds, then, be of a musical nature in that there would be a musical arrangement of many different sound vibrations, or would this apply to just one single note? Or which would it apply more to?
Ra: I am Ra. This query is not easily answered. In some cases only the intoned vowel has effect. In other cases, most notably Sanskrit combinations, the selection of harmonic intervals is also of resonant nature.
77.15 Questioner: The specific question that I had was that it seems to me that the choice was planned to create intense polarization past third density so that experience would be intense past third density. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.
78.35 Questioner: Then for the third archetype would the Empress be correct and be related to disciplined meditation?
Ra: I am Ra. I perceive a mind complex intention of a query, but was aware only of sound vibratory statement. Please re-question.
79.5 Questioner: We have been ending our banishing ritual prior to the session here by a gesture that relieves us of the magical personality. I was just wondering if we should omit that gesture so as to maintain the magical personality while performing the Circle of One and then only relinquish the magical personality either after that has formed or after the session? Which would be more appropriate?
Ra: I am Ra. The practice of magical workings demands the most rigorous honesty. If your estimate of your ability is that you can sustain the magical personality throughout this working, it is well. As long as you have some doubt it is inadvisable. In any case it is appropriate for this instrument to return its magical personality rather than carry this persona into the trance state, for it does not have the requisite magical skill to function in this circumstance and would be far more vulnerable than if the waking personality is offered as channel. This working is indeed magical in nature in the basic sense. However, it is inappropriate to move more quickly than one’s feet may walk.
82.3 Questioner: Jim has a personal question which is not to be published. He asks, “It seems that my balancing work has shifted from more peripheral concerns such as patience/impatience, to learning to open myself in unconditional love, to accepting my self as whole and perfect, and then to accepting my self as the Creator. If this is a normal progression of focus for balancing, wouldn’t it be more efficient once this is discovered for a person to work on the acceptance of self as Creator rather than work peripherally on the secondary and tertiary results of not accepting the self?”
Ra: I am Ra. The term efficiency has misleading connotations. In the context of doing work in the disciplines of the personality, in order to be of more full efficiency in the central acceptance of the self, it is first quite necessary to know the distortions of the self which the entity is accepting. Each thought and action needs must then be scrutinized for the precise foundation of the distortions of any reactions. This process shall lead to the more central task of acceptance. However, the architrave* must be in place before the structure is builded.
82.24 Questioner: We have presently an activity between physical incarnations called healing and review the incarnation. Was anything of this nature occurring prior to the veil between physical incarnations?
Ra: I am Ra. The inchoate structure of this process was always in place, but where there has been no harm there need be no healing. This too may be seen to have been of concern to Logoi which were aware that without the need to understand, understanding would forever be left undone. We ask your forgiveness for the use of this misnomer, but your language has a paucity of sound vibration complexes for this general concept.
84.4 Questioner: The instrument asked the following question: Ra has implied that the instrument is on a path of martyrdom, but since all die are we not all martyr to something? When, if ever, does martyrdom partake of wisdom?
Ra: I am Ra. This is a thoughtful query. Let us use as exemplar the one known as Jehoshua. This entity incarnated with the plan of martyrdom. There is no wisdom in this plan but rather understanding and compassion extended to its fullest perfection. The one known as Jehoshua would have been less than fully understanding of its course had it chosen to follow its will at any space/time during its teachings. Several times, as you call this measure, this entity had the possibility of moving towards the martyr’s place which was, for that martyr, Jerusalem. Yet in meditation this entity stated, time and again, “It is not yet the hour.” The entity could also have, when the hour came, walked another path. Its incarnation would then have been prolonged but the path for which it incarnated somewhat confused. Thusly, one may observe the greatest amount of understanding, of which this entity was indeed capable, taking place as the entity in meditation felt and knew that the hour had come for that to be fulfilled which was its incarnation.
It is indeed so that all mind/body/spirit complexes shall die to the third-density illusion; that is, that each yellow-ray physical-complex body shall cease to be viable. It is a misnomer to, for this reason alone, call each mind/body/spirit complex a martyr, for this term is reserved for those who lay down their lives for the service they may provide to others. We may encourage meditation upon the functions of the will.
87.17 Questioner: Thank you. We noticed the possibility of a confusion between the term “mind/body/spirit” and “mind/body/spirit complex” in the last session. Were there a couple of misuses of those terms, shifting one for the other?
Ra: I am Ra. There was an error in transmission. The use of the term “mind/body/spirit” should refer to those entities dwelling in third density prior to the veiling process, the term “mind/body/spirit complex” referring to those entities dwelling in third density after the veiling process. We also discover a failure on our part to supply the term “complex” when speaking of body after the veiling. Please correct these errors. Also, we ask that you keep a vigilant watch over these transmissions for any errors and question without fail as it is our intention to provide as undistorted a series of sound vibration complexes as is possible.
This entity, though far better cleared of distortions towards the pain flares when prepared by those mental vibration complexes you call prayer, is still liable to fluctuation due to its pre-incarnative body complex distortions and the energizing of them by those of negative polarity.
91.7 Questioner: Now, some entities on this planet evolved through second density into third and some were transferred from other planets to re-cycle in third density here. Did the ones who were transferred here to re-cycle in third density add to the planetary or racial mind?
Ra: I am Ra. Not only did each race add to the planetary mind but also each race possesses a racial mind. Thus we made this distinction in discussing this portion of mind. This portion of mind is formed in the series of seemingly non-simultaneous experiences which are chosen in freedom of will by the mind/body/spirit complexes of the planetary influence. Therefore, although this Akashic, planetary, or racial mind is indeed a root of mind it may be seen in sharp differentiation from the deeper roots of mind which are not a function of altering memory, if you will.
We must ask your patience at this time. This channel has become somewhat unclear due to the movement of the cover which touches this instrument. We ask that the opening sentences be repeated and the breath expelled.
[The microphones attached to the cover upon the instrument were pulled slightly as a rug was being placed over a noisy tape recorder. The Circle of One was walked; breath was expelled two feet above the instrument’s head from her right to her left; and the Circle of One was walked again as requested.]
I am Ra. We communicate now.
93.24 Questioner: I am assuming that you mean one full question, and I’ll make that question: I’d like to know the significance of the shape of the crux ansata, and if that’s too much of an answer I will just ask if there is anything we can do to make the instrument more comfortable or improve the contact?
Ra: I am Ra. There are mathematical ratios within this image which may yield informative insights to one fond of riddles. We shall not untangle the riddle. We may indicate that the crux ansata is a part of the concept complexes of the archetypical mind, the circle indicating the magic of the spirit, the cross indicating that nature of manifestation which may only be valued by the losing. Thus the crux ansata is intended to be seen as an image of the eternal in and through manifestation and beyond manifestation through the sacrifice and transformation of that which is manifest.
The support group functions well. The swirling waters experienced by the instrument since our previous working have substantially aided the instrument in its lessening of the distortion of pain.
All is well. The alignments are well guarded.
We leave you, my friends, in the love and the light of the Infinite One. Go forth, therefore, rejoicing in the power and in the peace of the One Infinite and Glorious Creator. Adonai.
94.10 Questioner: From the previous session the statement was made that much is veiled to the most apparently clear observation. Would Ra expand on what was meant by that statement? I assume that this means the veiling of all of that that is outside the limits of what we call our physical perception having to do with the spectrum of light, etc., but I also intuit there is more than that veiled. Would Ra expand on that concept?
Ra: I am Ra. You are perceptive in your supposition. Indeed, we meant not any suggestions that the physical apparatus of your current illusion were limited as part of the veiling process. Your physical limits are as they are.
However, because of the unique biases of each mind/body/spirit complex there are sometimes quite simple instances of distortion when there is no apparent cause for such distortion. Let us use the example of the virile and immature male who meets and speaks clearly with a young female whose physical form has the appropriate configuration to cause, for this male entity, the activation of the red-ray sexual arousal.
The words spoken may be upon a simple subject such as naming, information as to the occupation, and various other common interchanges of sound vibratory complex. The male entity, however, is using almost all the available consciousness it possesses in registering the desirability of the female. Such may also be true of the female.
Thusly an entire exchange of information may be meaningless because the actual catalyst is of the body. This is unconsciously controlled and is not a conscious decision. This example is simplistic.
94.17 Questioner: What was the last word that Ra communicated? I didn’t quite hear it.
Ra: I am Ra. We spoke the sound vibration complex, foot. Due to some pain flares, we are at times less than secure in the speaking. However, the way is open and conditions remain good for this working. Please continue to query if there is any difficulty in transmission.
94.27 Questioner: The bird is within a circle on the front of the entity in Card Four. Would that have the same significance as the circular part of the crux ansata?
Ra: I am Ra. It is a specialized form of this meaningful shape. It is specialized in great part due to the nature of the crossed legs of manifestation which we have previously discussed.
95.25 Questioner: I have often wondered about the action of random and programmed catalyst with respect to the entity with the very strong positive or negative polarization. Would one or either be free to a great extent from random catalyst occurring such as great natural catastrophes or warfare or something like that [that] generates a lot of random catalyst in the physical vicinity of a highly polarized entity? Does this great cat, then, have effect on such random catalyst upon the right-hand path?
Ra: I am Ra. In two circumstances this is so. Firstly, if there has been the pre-incarnative choice that, for instance, one shall not take life in the service of the cultural group, events shall fall in a protective manner. Secondly, if any entity is able to dwell completely in unity the only harm that may occur to it is the changing of the outward physical, yellow-ray vehicle into the more light-filled mind/body/spirit complex’s vehicle by the process of death. All other suffering and pain is as nothing to one such as this.
We may note that this perfect configuration of the mind, body, and spirit complexes, while within the third-density vehicle, is extraordinarily rare.
96.6 Questioner: Was the unusual sound on the instrument’s tape recorder that occurred while she was trying to record her singing a greeting from our fifth-density, negative associate?
Ra: I am Ra. No. Rather it was a greeting from a malfunctioning electronic machine.
Ra: We shall pause at this time if the questioner will be patient. There are fairly serious difficulties with the instrument’s throat. We shall attempt to ameliorate the situation and suggest the re-walking of the Circle of One.
[Cough.]
[Cough.]
[The Circle of One was re-walked and breath expelled two feet above the instrument’s head.]
I am Ra. Please continue.
98.5 Questioner: I have a question from the instrument. She states: “Could Ra tell us what factors are allowing our fifth-density, negative companion to be able to continue greeting the instrument in the throat area as well as with other unusual sensations such as dizziness, smelling of orange blossoms, the feeling of stepping on imaginary creatures, and what can be done to lessen these greetings? And why the greetings occur on walks?”
Ra: I am Ra. There are various portions of the query. We shall attempt answer to each. We tread close to the Law of Confusion, saved only by the awareness that given lack of information this instrument would, nonetheless, continue to offer its service.
The working of your fifth-density companion, which still affects the instrument, was, as we have stated, a potent working. The totality of those biases which offer to the instrument opportunities for increased vital and physical strength, shall we say, were touched by the working. The blue-ray difficulties were not entirely at an end after the first asking. Again, this group experienced blockage rare for the group; that is, the blue-ray blockage of unclear communication. By this means the efficacy of the working was reinforced.
The potential of this working is significant. The physical exercising, the sacred music, the varieties of experience, and indeed simple social intercourse are jeopardized by a working which attempts to close the throat and the mouth. It is to be noted that there is also the potential for the loss of this contact.
We suggest that the instrument’s allergies create a continuous means whereby the distortion created by the magical working may be continued. As we have stated, it shall be necessary, in order to remove the working, to completely remove the distortion within the throat area caused by this working. The continuous aggravation of allergic reactions makes this challenging.
The orange blossom is the odor which you may associate with the social memory complex of fifth-density positive which is known to you as sound vibration, Latwii. This entity was with the instrument as requested by the instrument. The odor was perceived due to the quite sensitive nature of the instrument due, again, to its, shall we say, acme in the eighteen-day cycle.
The sensation of stepping upon the small animal and killing it was a greeting from your fifth-density, negative companion also made possible by the above circumstance.
As to the removal of the effects of the magical working, we may make two suggestions, one immediate and one general. Firstly, within the body of knowledge which those healers known among your peoples as medical doctors have is the use of harsh chemical substances which you call medicine. These substances almost invariably cause far more changes than are intended in the mind/body/spirit complex. However, in this instance the steroids or, alternately, the antibiotic family might be useful in the complete removal of the difficulty within which the working is still able to thrive. Of course, the allergies would persist after this course of medicine were ended, but the effects of the working would no longer come into play.
The one you call Jerome might well be of aid in this somewhat unorthodox medical situation. As allergies are quite misunderstood by your orthodox healers, it would be inappropriate to subject the instrument to the services of your medical doctors which find the amelioration of allergic effects to be connected with the intake of these same toxins in milder form. This, shall we say, treats, the symptom. However, the changes offered to the body complex are quite inadvisable. The allergy may be seen to be the rejection upon a deep level of the mind complex of the environment of the mind/body/spirit complex. Thus the allergy may be seen in its pure form as the mental/emotional distortion of the deeper self.
The more general recommendation lies with one which does not wish to be identified. There is a code name prayer wheel. We suggest ten treatments from this healer and further suggest a clear reading and subsequent following, upon the part of the instrument, of the priorities of allergy, especially to your foodstuffs.
Lastly, the effects of the working become apparent upon the walking when the body complex has begun to exert itself to the point of increased respiration. Also a contributing factor is the number of your second-density substances to which this instrument is allergic.
98.15 Questioner: Then any mind/body complex can develop cancer as a result of anger. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.
At this time we would break our routine by making an observation. We observe the following coincidence. Firstly, the congestion of this instrument’s throat due to the flow of mucous caused by energized allergic reaction has, at this point, become such that we may safely predict the probability/possibility vortex approaching certainty that within one-half of an hour we shall need to depart from this working. Secondly, as we noted the above the sound vibration made by one of your sound vibration recording devices was audible to us. If this group desires, it may choose to have sessions which are brought to an ending soon after this sound vibration occurs. This decision would ensure the minimal distortions within the instrument towards the discomfort/comfort within the throat until the effects of the magical working of your fifth-density companion have been removed.
98.16 Questioner: That is perfectly fine with us. That noise occurs at the forty-five minute time since the tape is forty-five minutes on a side. I would just ask as a final question, then, if the new table that Jim has built for the appurtenances is satisfactory to hold them since it will give us more room to walk around the bed, and if it is better to leave it in its natural condition as it is, or to coat it with linseed oil or varnish or paint?
Ra: I am Ra. We view this appurtenance. It sings with joy. The pine vibrates in praise. Much investment of this working in wood has been done. It is acceptable. We may suggest it be left either as it is or rubbed with the oil which also is easily magnetized and holds the proffered vibration to a profound extent.
99.5 Questioner: Finally, of the preliminary questions, one from Jim stating, “For the last three weeks I have often been at the edge of anger and frustration, have had a nearly constant dull pain at my indigo-ray center, and have felt quite drained of energy. Would Ra comment on the source of these experiences and any thoughts or actions that might alleviate it?”
Ra: I am Ra. As in all distortions, the source is the limit of the viewpoint. We may, without serious infringement, suggest three courses of behavior which shall operate upon the distortion expressed.
Firstly, it would be well for the scribe to engage, if not daily then as nearly so as possible, in a solitary strenuous activity which brings this entity to the true physical weariness. Further, although any activity may suffice, an activity chosen for its intended service to the harmony of the group would be quite efficacious.
The second activity is some of your space/time and time/space taken by the entity, directly or as nearly so as possible to the strenuous activity, for solitary contemplation.
Thirdly, the enthusiastic pursuit of the balancing and silent meditations cannot be deleted from the list of helpful activities for this entity.
We may note that the great forte of the scribe is summed in the inadequate sound vibration complex, power. The flow of power, just as the flow of love or wisdom, is enabled not by the chary** conserver of its use but by the constant user. The physical manifestation of power being either constructive or destructive strenuous activity, the power-filled entity must needs exercise that manifestation. This entity experiences a distortion in the direction of an excess of stored energy. It is well to know the self and to guard and use those attributes which the self has provided for its learning and its service.
99.7 Questioner: The only problem is something that I am sure is quite foreign to Ra’s way of thinking which is called “copyright laws.” We have been unable to get copyright privileges from the publishers of the cards that we started with, and we’ll have to circumnavigate that problem some way or another, which could conceivably cause us to use a different set of images as we go along.
The wings of Card Five, I am guessing, have to do with a protection over the— they’re above the Significator of the Mind, and I am guessing they are a symbol of protection. Is this in any way correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Let us say that you are not incorrect but rather less than correct. The Significator owns a covenant with the spirit which it shall in some cases manifest through the thought and action of the adept. If there is protection in a promise, then you have chosen the correct sound vibration, for the outstretched wings of spirit, high above manifestation, yet draw the caged mind onward.
99.9 Questioner: In the previous session you mentioned the use of the forty-five minute interval of the tape recorder as a signal for ending the session. Is this still the appropriate time?
Ra: I am Ra. This is, of course, at the discretion of the questioner for this instrument has some transferred energy and remains open as it has unfailingly done. However, the fragility of the instrument has been more and more appreciated by us. We, in the initial observations, saw the strength of will and overestimated greatly the recuperative abilities of the physical complex of this entity.
Therefore, we may say that ending a working at approximately this amount of energy expenditure; that is, some point soon following upon the sound vibration of which you speak, would be appropriate and, insofar as we may determine, may well extend the incarnational amount of your space/time which this instrument shall be able to offer to this contact.
102.4 Questioner: Will you please do that?
Ra: I am Ra. The entity, sound vibration Arthur, has a surname Schoen, and is of your locality.
105.4 Questioner: Could you please tell me what caused Jim’s kidney problem to return, and what could be done to heal it?
Ra: I am Ra. The entity, Jim, determined that it would cleanse itself and thus would spend time/space and space/time in pursuit and contemplation of perfection. The dedication to this working was intensified until the mind/body/spirit complex rang in harmony with this intention. The entity did not grasp the literal way in which metaphysical intentions are translated by the body complex of one working in utter unity of purpose. The entity began the period of prayer, fasting, penitence, and rejoicing. The body complex, which was not yet fully recovered from the nephrotic syndrome*, began to systematically cleanse each organ, sending all the detritus that was not perfect through kidneys which were not given enough liquid to dilute the toxins being released. The toxins stayed with the body complex and reactivated a purely physical illness. There is no metaphysical portion in this relapse.
The healing is taking place in manifestation of an affirmation of body complex health which, barring untoward circumstance, shall be completely efficacious.
105.17 Questioner: Now, as an example I would like to take the distortion of a disease or bodily malfunction prior to [the] veil and compare it to that after the veil. Let us assume that the conditions that Jim, for instance, experienced with respect to his kidney malfunction had been an experience that occurred prior to the veil. Would this experience have occurred prior to the veil? Would it have been different? And if so, how?
Ra: I am Ra. The anger of separation is impossible without the veil. The lack of awareness of the body’s need for liquid is unlikely without the veil. The decision to contemplate perfection in discipline is quite improbable without the veil.
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